How to Change Left/Right OFFSET in ATE?

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How to Change Left/Right OFFSET in ATE?

Postby DKNTEC » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:03 pm

In a survey in FG05 I incorrectly entered a perpendicular OFFSET from the target as Left instead of Right, in a simple sideshot.
I brought the project into MSCADD 2005 & then discovered the goof.

Is there a simple way to fix this, to change the OFFSET from Left to Right, in the Active Traverse Editor (before running Re-Coordinate Traverse)?
Per MS Help for ATE, the raw FG/TDS Record Notes cannot be changed.
Is it even possible to correct this Left/Right error?

I don't want to just manually move the shot on the drawing, as there are a few other revisions to work through later in the ATE, & Re-Coordinate would then pull this shot back to the incorrect location.

Or should I just delete the original output line in ATE after the "OF" FG/TDS Record Notes, and then add a new shot in ATE with the correct OFFSET? (and run Re-Coordinate).

The FG/TDS method of Offsets revises the raw H&V angles & SDistance to include the Offset amount, showing the adjusted angle & distance values in the last line of the "OF" FG/TDS Record Notes.
ATE then copies this data from this last "OF" line into it's own line following, which produces the shot coordinates. No Offset amounts are shown in the Par Off (Parallel Offset) & Perp Off (Perpendicular Offset) columns.

However, the MS method in ATE handles Offsets differently by using only the raw angles & SD, and then adding the Par Off & Perp Off values to produce the coordinates, correct?
If so, then in the new shot added to ATE, use the raw H&V angles & SD shown in the first line of the "OF" F/G TDS Record for the original shot, and the correct offset in the Perp Off column, correct?
Left Offset is -, & Right Offset is + numbers, correct?

In ATE the "Parallel Offset" is the FG/TDS (Measured) Horizontal Distance Offset, correct? - number in front of, & + number behind, the target, correct?

Perhaps some further explanation should be added to MSCAD HELP on these OFFSET namings.
After thinking about it, I can see the rationale behind the changes from the FG/TDS terminologies of "Left/Right Offset" and "Horizontal Distance Offset" to ATE's "Perpendicular Offset" & "Parallel Offset".
These were a little confusing at first - the MSCAD Modify "Parallel" drawing command means offset to a side of a line (i.e. perpendicular!), but in ATE, "Parallel" means offset front or back of the target - NOT parallel to the shot measure line.
It was only by concluding the ATE "Perpendicular Offset" meant "Left/Right", that the remaining "Parallel Offset" must mean "(Measured) Distance" - add or subtract.

Thank you for your help with my questions!
I had searched Help & the Forum but did not find info. on these.
In the end I think I've figured out my answers - hopefully this will help the next guy!
Keep up the good work on your great products!
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Postby Glen Cameron » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:17 am

WOW - long message - lets see if I can answer everything without missing anything. :)

To start with the terms parallel and perpendicular are a little confusing because of CAD vs SURVEY terminology not always meaning the same thing.
- The Parallel command is a CAD command to create a parallel line offset whatever distance from the original. So Parallel makes sence being the resulting line is parallel to the original.
- Parallel for Traverse data entry is referring to the line of sight being parallel (to the original shot) so it either an extension of the line of sight (+ value) or a backtracking along the line of sight (- value), to set a point.
- Perpendicular offset is - for Left and + for right, based upon the line of sight.

There is a small diagram in the help file under Traverse Calcs, that helps depict this.

As you said - the Active Traverse Editor allows you to enter in the Parallel or Perpendicular offset if you have a normal shot recorded and then the offset needs to be applied to it to give the final resulting location. This is not the case from the TDS file format as it has already calulated the final shot and shows it in the ATE.

To make an edit to this type of shot, you would have to go back to the RAW file and see if you can make the change to the original "OF" FG/TDS Record Notes data line. (I have not tried this but if you change a - to a + or visa versa, then reread the RAW file into MSCAD, it may process it as desired)

If this does not work then you could use the original shot and offset data to add a record manually, and delete the original output line in ATE after the "OF" FG/TDS Record Notes as well as the "OF" line, so if you re-coordinate the traverse, the expect results prevail.

Glen W. Cameron, C.E.T.
City of North Bay, Ontario
Glen Cameron
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Location: Corbeil, Ontario, Canada

More on Left/Right Offset in ATE

Postby DKNTEC » Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:40 pm

Thank you for your quick reply! The MS Forum is a huge bonus to your products! Sorry for the long messages.
1) Ah yes, I found the small diagram you mentioned in HELP>Traverse Calcs>"Hot button" on Manual Enter Traverse data, near the bottom of the page. Perhaps in the future release of MSCAD this could be added to HELP>Active Traverse Editor, Format Menu, Show Offsets or a link provided, or at least a comment there to direct to where it is now.

2) Fixing the -/+ Left/Right Offset goof in the .RAW ASCII file is easy to do by simple text editing - it is the same file format we used to revise directly to cleanup in TDS DOS days, and then simply regenerate the TDS coordinates.
This is what I was initially expecting to be able to do directly in the MS ATE.
To re-read the RAW file back into MSCAD looks simple enough per HELP>Import DC File Choice>TDS, and should work. This would be the clean solution.
However to use this method effectively, one would have to catch & fix this OFFSET (or other) goof FIRST, and re-read the revised RAW file to build a new ATE, before doing any other changes to original ATE.
Complicating the issue is that I have already made a numerous other changes & tuneups in the original ATE.
Using this method now will lose those other changes & they would have to be redone in the new ATE. Or the other changes also made in the .RAW file. Either way, start from scratch.

3) A little dirtier method, but simpler to do at this point is just add a new record line manually to the original ATE, as mentioned in your last paragraph.
No problem to delete the original output line in ATE after the "OF' FG/TDS Record notes.
However, the "OF" lines (or any FG/TDS Record Note lines) are not editable and can't be deleted, per ATE HELP.
This may not matter as I assume the ATE Re-Coordinate Traverse does NOT read & calculate through the FG/TDS Record lines during the Re-coordination; these lines are ignored just like a regular "Note" line, correct?
I assume ATE Re-Coordinate Traverse uses only the lines displayed when ATE "Format>Show FG/TDS Notes" is turned off (unchecked), correct?
If ATE Re-Coordinate DOES read & use any of the FG/TDS Record lines, it may mess up. Perhaps though the result would be overwritten in any event by the following added record line.

One minor disadvantage in this method will produce a ATE page with a single value in the "Perp Off" column for that one shot.
The ATE Par Off & Perp Off columns normally contain only zeros from a normal FG Project download. Therefore to help fit the ATE printout onto 8.5x11 paper in portrait mode, I usually turn off the unneeded Par Off & Perp Off columns.
Now a single number on one line will need the whole Perp Off column displayed over many pages in the set. Oh well!

Lots of messing around to fix a 1 keystroke goof, eh?

Again, sorry for the long messages.
This all began yesterday morning as a simple topic & quick question.
In looking for how to fix the goof, I was expecting to just find a spot to make a simple & quick -/+ Left/Right correction directly into ATE & then run Re-Coordinate, ala old TDS per 2) above, it would be done.
We could correct this simple error directly and simply 15 years ago in TDS-PC Plus DOS. (But No, I'm not going back to those days).
After digging deeper & learning more about several things in ATE, this topic was not so simple anymore. What else is new, eh?

MSCAD's ADT & ATE are powerful, great tools in many ways, but this issue has raised a shortcomng in it. The same glitch applies for the other OFFSET shot methods too, and perhaps some other field functions?

The workarounds above will do.
But, we SHOULD be able to easily & quickly edit & clean up ALL of the field data directly in ATE to correct a simple keystroke error like this.

Maybe if there was some way to toggle "Unlock" all or part of the underlying raw data in ATE to allow direct editing in it? Maybe this opens up a can of worms I don't know about.
TDS-PC Plus DOS had the ability to let you edit & process the .RAW data file DIRECTLY through a filter screen that "expanded" the information for easier viewing & workability.
Why not the same for ATE?
ATE has evolved from the same basic format, and is built around the .RAW data file, but doesn't let me work on the raw data information directly "in real time" to clean it up.
Why not? Seems goofy not to be able to do this. I realize there may be proprietary issues involved or other stuff I don't know about.

ATE is light years ahead of the old TDS DOS, yet has this (to me) very basic foundational part of it missing. Why?
The little problem I encountered shows a bigger picture.

Keep up the good work! The above is intended as positive suggestions for further improvements to your great product.
Thanks again,
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Location: Kaleden, BC Canada

Postby Glen Cameron » Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:56 am

I will ensure that the development team is aware of the issues brought up in our discussion here. I do agree with what has been said and your assumptions are correct.

Glen W. Cameron, C.E.T.
City of North Bay, Ontario
Glen Cameron
Posts: 1395
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 12:18 pm
Location: Corbeil, Ontario, Canada

Postby Glen Cameron » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:36 am

I received a reply from the development team and they basically said that we have this marked down has a feature request for MSCAD.

For now you would need to create a new sideshot record using the first OF record and then enter in the new correct Perp Offset value followed by a re-coordination.

In some future version we will allow you, the user, an easier method for editing the offset measurements from FieldGenius. No time frame given for this to be added.

Glen W. Cameron, C.E.T.
City of North Bay, Ontario
Glen Cameron
Posts: 1395
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 12:18 pm
Location: Corbeil, Ontario, Canada

Offsets in ATE

Postby DKNTEC » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:05 am

After thinking about this over the weekend, perhaps due to the fundamental difference between the methods that TDS & ATE calculate, record, & display the OFFSETs, it may not be possible or even desirable to allow editing of the .RAW file notes shown in ATE. It would get complicated.
No doubt this was an issue in development of ATE in the first place.
Although it adds two more columns for Par Off & Perp Off , the MS ATE method IS more straightforward in that it uses, records & displays only the actual measured values, instead of a calculated resultant in the TDS method. The TDS method is more convoluted.
Perhaps the old TDS method was done that way to avoid 2 more values to record & display in the days of more limited computing resources.
Perhaps just more information in HELP about how to deal with an correction of an OFFSET value from a FG/TDS project or .RAW file would suffice.
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